Anime with female protagonists

I mean, it is all taste thing. Some people might like watching, say, 10 episodes of nothing-good so that they could get a huge pay off. Who are we to judge =) I prefer it when the anime gives me something from the first minutes, which isn't that difficult. Like with Madoka. It starts with that dream about Walpurgisnacht fight, that is like totally enough to get my attention =) And it introduces lots of interesting small details, going more and more in-depth, until the first death and the big reveal that this is not a happy-go-lucky mahou shoujo anime. I like this style. But I have nothing against the idea that one should wait a bit till the anime shows you what it has in store. 
Like, I recently read a book, Metro 2033 by D. Glushkovski, and one of the best things about this book was the reveal at the very end. I am talking about the last few pages. And it made the experience much better for me, even though it only affected the story in retrospect. I am perfectly fine with that too. If the book is going to make me think back to it after I finished reading it, that is a good thing already I believe =)

What : D 45 episodes xD I though the first two episodes were brilliant. And the 3rd and the 4th ones are actually a bit boring in comparison. The 5th one is pretty good though. I dunno why I would need to wait 45 episodes for anything, it seems to be good enough from the start.

I don't know what people meant by that. Maybe they like some particular aspect of Jojo, like fights with wanky supernatural powers. As fas as I am concerned, JoJo is great from the 2nd or 3rd episode (I don't remember exactly, after the first time skip basically). I am watching it for the comedy though.

I mean the films that are set chronologically after Darth Vader's death. So I think yeah, I am thinking about the films you have listed.

Taking the lore of Start Wars universe seriously seems a bit funny to me ^^' It is pretty much a fairy tale, a children's story, set in a sci-fi settings. Whatever though. I know Star Wars has some pretty passionate fans =)


Oh no no. What I meant was that I was almost always hooked to those shows that were described as "wait till episode X for it to get good" from the start. I just feel like those were people who didn't watch enough anime to pick up on things. 
I can only give a film example that kinda makes everything awesome on retrospect, and that was The Sixth Sense, and even that film was like close to great in terms of the atmosphere, editing and direction. 

Yes. I'm not kidding. And I feel like it's sort of a defense mechanism of the fans of this show. What I mean is that whenever people say Gintama sucks after watching more than 10 episodes, they give this huge number to make it seem as though you need to have patience and it'll eventually get good. Gintama's style isn't for everyone and that's understandable.
PB is often regarded as the weakest part of JoJo. I've heard this plenty of times from prominent youtubers, on reddit and a lot of other stuff that can correspond to "popular opinion".

You'd be surprised at the amount of people who get crazy about this. They drove the main lead of Force Awakens after the film was released out of social media because she was a "Mary Sue", and a side character from The Last Jedi out too, because it was her that made the film suck/she was the worst part of the movie. The latter kinda becomes a worse situation because she's of Asian origin and they targeted her for that.
Plus, the amount of hate the prequels got(or more specifically the actors got) was unimaginable.
 
Oh no no. What I meant was that I was almost always hooked to those shows that were described as "wait till episode X for it to get good" from the start. I just feel like those were people who didn't watch enough anime to pick up on things. 
I can only give a film example that kinda makes everything awesome on retrospect, and that was The Sixth Sense, and even that film was like close to great in terms of the atmosphere, editing and direction. 

Yes. I'm not kidding. And I feel like it's sort of a defense mechanism of the fans of this show. What I mean is that whenever people say Gintama sucks after watching more than 10 episodes, they give this huge number to make it seem as though you need to have patience and it'll eventually get good. Gintama's style isn't for everyone and that's understandable.
PB is often regarded as the weakest part of JoJo. I've heard this plenty of times from prominent youtubers, on reddit and a lot of other stuff that can correspond to "popular opinion".

You'd be surprised at the amount of people who get crazy about this. They drove the main lead of Force Awakens after the film was released out of social media because she was a "Mary Sue", and a side character from The Last Jedi out too, because it was her that made the film suck/she was the worst part of the movie. The latter kinda becomes a worse situation because she's of Asian origin and they targeted her for that.
Plus, the amount of hate the prequels got(or more specifically the actors got) was unimaginable.


Or maybe they just like one particular thing about the anime. Or they are too focused on one good thing about the anime to notice all the others =) There are exceptions though. Like, I am pretty sure most people would do good to just skip the first episode of Baccano, cause there is nothing to like about it. Also it is another way to say that the show isn't what you'd thing it is if you see less than X number of episodes. For example, you wouldn't know what Madoka is if you have seen less than 3 episodes. Doesn't mean you have to suffer through the first 3 episodes to get to the good stuff though, it is interesting from the get go. But it is still true that the show changes after the 3rd episode. And then it changes again after the reveal of Kyubey's intentions, and then yet again after Homura tells her back story. 

Gintama has a dedicated fan base, nothing to be done ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess if you watch 45 episodes you will get attached to the characters and the comedy will work better for you. I remember how much I enjoyed random comedy episodes in Bleach, all because I knew the characters and seeing them do dumb things was funny =)

Okay. Now you know at least one person who thinks otherwise, hopefully it will make watching this season less scary for you : D

I know this series has passionate fans. I just find it funny that someone would seriously talk about the 'lore' of Star Wars. Obviously it wasn't a well thought-through story, its lore is just whatever made it to the final cut.
 

The problem is when people like these recommend Steins Gate and then say you need to get through the first half to get to the good stuff. That's apparently half the anime that's not good so no point in recommending it. I won't give an anime like that more than a 5.
I wouldn't say so. It still has elements within the first 3 episodes that kinda differentiate it from the rest of the bunch. Mostly elements of fore-shadowing. Only if someone is like blind and is not paying attention do they completely not see
 
The problem is when people like these recommend Steins Gate and then say you need to get through the first half to get to the good stuff. That's apparently half the anime that's not good so no point in recommending it. I won't give an anime like that more than a 5.
I wouldn't say so. It still has elements within the first 3 episodes that kinda differentiate it from the rest of the bunch. Mostly elements of fore-shadowing. Only if someone is like blind and is not paying attention do they completely not see something bad coming. 
Yes I still enjoy a ton of clips from Naruto as well. But I didn't have to get through 45-50 episodes for it to get good. And Bleach as well. 50 episodes is 4 cours, it's the length of Code Geass and FMA so saying something like that is a very very bad argument to make someone watch a show.

Oh no no I'm not scared at all. I tend to not have any sort of preconceived notion once I decide to watch an anime, I learned that lesson a lot of times. 

There's thousands of videos in YouTube about the lore of Star Wars actually.
And I'd say that the original trilogy(or rather Luke's trilogy) actually has a solid lore. One that's ambiguous enough, and not convoluted. The prequels kinda over-explain everything and ruin it.

Making good recommendations isn't easy, so. Even when you know the anime is good or when you know the anime would pass well to your friend's taste, it is still not that easy to put it to words. It is much easier to just say "watch 3 episodes and decide if you like it" =) I wouldn't really pay attention to demands to watch X episodes before deciding to proceed. If the anime is actually so bad you dropped it after say 3 episodes, then that is that, doesn't matter if it gets better after a few episodes. 

I can't imagine a show like Steins Gate is no good for the entire first half :/

Yes, but it is easy to make an argument that you have not seen the real face of Madoka Magika if you only watched 2 episodes, or at least that you haven't seen how it handles tragedy, character deaths, genre subversion, etc. It doesn't mean that you didn't know it was coming, you just haven't experienced it. It is  not a reason to demand you to watch the 3rd episode, just a thought to consider =)

So is Gintama. Well, I liked it from the first episode, so. I have no clue what is going to happen after the 45 episodes, probably even more comedy =) And yeah, that is a bad argument for sure. A better way to say it would be "it doesn't get boring and repetitive after 45 episodes", that would be a something :angel:

I guess. I've seen lots of silly fantasy stories that gave me a better feeling about their 'lore' than start wars. Star Wars is more of a fun ride than a deep story, I feel like. I am not saying it is broken or something, I didn't think about it enough to find an inconsistencies. And there is so little to it, I would be surprised if it did break.
 


I didn't find Steins Gate to be boring for the first half. It wouldn't be in my top 5 anime of all time.
The thing is, the first half is fully build-up, foreshadowing, and character development and is mostly dialogue driven. Everything falls into place in the middle of the series, and the plot kicks into gear after that. It's just that for some people, that sort of first half is something they have to get through. Even though it's some of the best I've ever seen and the only ones I've seen do that as good are Bakemonogatari and Serial Experiments Lain.

Personally I don't think it subverted any genre tropes, there are lots of dark magical girl series out there with character deaths. I think that its strength is its screen-play and narrative. Especially the narrative, because focus on character is secondary in the series for the most part. Homura and Madoka get a grand character arc for sure but others' feel rushed or incomplete to me.
 
MadaraUchiha said:
I didn't find Steins Gate to be boring for the first half. It wouldn't be in my top 5 anime of all time.
The thing is, the first half is fully build-up, foreshadowing, and character development and is mostly dialogue driven. Everything falls into place in the middle of the series, and the plot kicks into gear after that. It's just that for some people, that sort of first half is something they have to get through. Even though it's some of the best I've ever seen and the only ones I've seen do that as good are Bakemonogatari and Serial Experiments Lain.

Personally I don't think it subverted any genre tropes, there are lots of dark magical girl series out there with character deaths. I think that its strength is its screen-play and narrative. Especially the narrative, because focus on character is secondary in the series for the most part. Homura and Madoka get a grand character arc for sure but others' feel rushed or incomplete to me.
 


I swear I remember you watching Serial Experiments Lain. By the way, if at all you decide to watch SEL or Bakemonogatari(and if you like it), watch the other, because the way Bake is edited, cut and the shots are composited is really really similar to the way it's done in SEL.

A Bones show with mediocre action eh. I guess there's an exception to everything.
I'm not sure how I'll take it though. Tonal shifts that aren't done well don't sit with me for some reason. I'm not saying that it's not done well in Tempest(because I haven't watched it obviously). Something like Ao no Exorcist had the same problem, in my opinion, though it had other issues as well(like the narrative compressing at least story that's worth 50 episodes into like 10 episodes).

By the way, edit in my reply: I meant Steins Gate wouldn't be in my top 5 if it had a boring first half.

I'm pretty sure Nanoha and Princess Tutu aren't all that kid-friendly. And when it comes to subversion isn't Revolutionary Girl Utena the more prominent example?
 
MadaraUchiha said:
I swear I remember you watching Serial Experiments Lain. By the way, if at all you decide to watch SEL or Bakemonogatari(and if you like it), watch the other, because the way Bake is edited, cut and the shots are composited is really really similar to the way it's done in SEL.

A Bones show with mediocre action eh. I guess there's an exception to everything.
I'm not sure how I'll take it though. Tonal shifts that aren't done well don't sit with me for some reason. I'm not saying that it's not done well in Tempest(because I haven't watched it obviously). Something like Ao no Exorcist had the same problem, in my opinion, though it had other issues as well(like the narrative compressing at least story that's worth 50 episodes into like 10 episodes).

By the way, edit in my reply: I meant Steins Gate wouldn't be in my top 5 if it had a boring first half.

I'm pretty sure Nanoha and Princess Tutu aren't all that kid-friendly. And when it comes to subversion isn't Revolutionary Girl Utena the more prominent example?
 


But I also mentioned that I like it when it's done well though :-P.
Hunter x Hunter has all of these shifts across arcs though, not within a span of few episodes without doing it in a jarring way. There's a good amount of breathing room, almost always before we are swept away, and each arc has a well done three act structure. And each arc is better than the previous one, with the Chimera Ant arc being a master-piece, so I won't complain.

The thing with Ao no Exorcist is that it begins as an adaptation of a fantasy light novel(it's not actually), then the next 10 episodes are like a version of Harry Potter, then the plot comes to a screeching half, with a beach and picnic episode included along the way, and then the last 7-8 episodes suddenly it's the end of the world and the big bad guy has to be defeated by our protagonist.
The last part is like if Madara invaded Konoha during the Chuunin Exams arc and he's defeated by Naruto.

The entire Nanoha series is on Prime and I saw bits and pieces of it and it was pretty "dark". And as far as Utena is concerned I'm only going off of my friends' words and he said it's definitely a Mahou Shoujo show.
Decomposition?
 
But I also mentioned that I like it when it's done well though :-P.
Hunter x Hunter has all of these shifts across arcs though, not within a span of few episodes without doing it in a jarring way. There's a good amount of breathing room, almost always before we are swept away, and each arc has a well done three act structure. And each arc is better than the previous one, with the Chimera Ant arc being a master-piece, so I won't complain.

The thing with Ao no Exorcist is that it begins as an adaptation of a fantasy light novel(it's not actually), then the next 10 episodes are like a version of Harry Potter, then the plot comes to a screeching half, with a beach and picnic episode included along the way, and then the last 7-8 episodes suddenly it's the end of the world and the big bad guy has to be defeated by our protagonist.
The last part is like if Madara invaded Konoha during the Chuunin Exams arc and he's defeated by Naruto.

The entire Nanoha series is on Prime and I saw bits and pieces of it and it was pretty "dark". And as far as Utena is concerned I'm only going off of my friends' words and he said it's definitely a Mahou Shoujo show.
Decomposition?

Zetsuen no Tempest's transitions are much faster then HxH's ^^' On the other hand it has a really good score and the characters are interesting and memorable, if that is a compensation : D Also there is a mystery running through the whole show, starting from the first episode, and I didn't solve it even though it was half-fair. I'd count that is as a plus.

Okay xD That is how I imagine the plot of most of the modern shonen anime I haven't seen. I am sure it is not true, it is just a pessimist in me speaking. 

The whole deal with genre decomposition is that a story (book/film/show) takes a genre, but instead of naively following it tropes it tries to see where these tropes will lead if you follow them carefully, avoiding shortcuts and whatnot. For example, mahou shoujo is all about normal girls acquiring magic powers, usually with some sort of medium individual. Madoka explored this idea of making normal girls fight with their lives on the line. What makes them do so? Who would want them to do so? What do they give up to enter this game? Who are their enemies? Genre decomposition is basically all about pushing obvious questions like that so far that they destroy the image of the genre whose tropes they have risen. 

There aren't this many clear cut examples of genre decomposition though. It is one of the postmodern techniques which try to use existing conventions as tools without submitting to them. For example, Terry Pratchett would constantly use genre decomposition in his Discworld novels; but it is mixed with satire, making fun of particular writers, references and so on. The premise of One Punch Man - a hero that can defeat anything in one punch, that is a decomposition of the hero stories. But OPM doesn't go too far with this, it is more of a setting for a normal in-genre story.  I guess most of the best examples of this writing tool would be in some high profile lit from the second half of the 20th century; I have no idea though, haven't read those : D
 
That is what I meant about Utena, it just utilizes the mahou shoujo setting, it doesn't try to expand or comment on it. It is just what I remember it to be, I might be completely wrong.
 
Zetsuen no Tempest's transitions are much faster then HxH's ^^' On the other hand it has a really good score and the characters are interesting and memorable, if that is a compensation : D Also there is a mystery running through the whole show, starting from the first episode, and I didn't solve it even though it was half-fair. I'd count that is as a plus.

Okay xD That is how I imagine the plot of most of the modern shonen anime I haven't seen. I am sure it is not true, it is just a pessimist in me speaking. 

The whole deal with genre decomposition is that a story (book/film/show) takes a genre, but instead of naively following it tropes it tries to see where these tropes will lead if you follow them carefully, avoiding shortcuts and whatnot. For example, mahou shoujo is all about normal girls acquiring magic powers, usually with some sort of medium individual. Madoka explored this idea of making normal girls fight with their lives on the line. What makes them do so? Who would want them to do so? What do they give up to enter this game? Who are their enemies? Genre decomposition is basically all about pushing obvious questions like that so far that they destroy the image of the genre whose tropes they have risen. 

There aren't this many clear cut examples of genre decomposition though. It is one of the postmodern techniques which try to use existing conventions as tools without submitting to them. For example, Terry Pratchett would constantly use genre decomposition in his Discworld novels; but it is mixed with satire, making fun of particular writers, references and so on. The premise of One Punch Man - a hero that can defeat anything in one punch, that is a decomposition of the hero stories. But OPM doesn't go too far with this, it is more of a setting for a normal in-genre story.  I guess most of the best examples of this writing tool would be in some high profile lit from the second half of the 20th century; I have no idea though, haven't read those : D
 
That is what I meant about Utena, it just utilizes the mahou shoujo setting, it doesn't try to expand or comment on it. It is just what I remember it to be, I might be completely wrong.

I don't mind it if it's not done in a jarring way. The movie Avengers Infinity War balances between 30-40 different characters, and three extremely important story lines simultaneously, and it's extremely good. Albeit all of these characters are introduced in the 18 movies that preceded it and only the main antagonist is the new character here.

The shounen anime I've seen that aren't more than a hundred episodes have been good for the most part. The pacing get a bit too fast for sure, like in the case of Food Wars season 3, but the first two seasons are extremely good, as are Haikyuu and My Hero Academia. Studios have gotten better at adapting shounen manga seasonally.

Is it though? In Cardcaptor Sakura, Sakura Kinomoto is a normal girl who gets powers, and her life is constantly on the line and she has to defend herself. Madoka has deaths for sure, but that's subversive, it doesn't destroy the genre. It's merely modifying the elements of the genre. And those deaths are trivial if you take into account the fact that there's a being who jumps across multiple timelines. Madoka still has a mascot character, a magical girl transformation, a weapon to fight and she saves the day at the end. It's just that it pushes the boundary of the magical girl genre and is more darker. Madoka isn't commenting on the nature of the genre or taking it apart in any way. I'd even say that it relies on shock value, like Attack on Titan, meaning it wants to like dark compared to other shows. And of course, its focus on certain themes, selfishness/selflessness, Kyube's practicality and not being concerned about free will, etc.

One Punch Man is more of a parody in my opinon, of one trope of the genre, the fights being extended to an endless amount of time, and an adult like Saitama ending it in one punch. And Saitama at the end is no different from Naruto or Deku, he's still good, he's a hero and he wants to save people by risking his life.
 
I don't mind it if it's not done in a jarring way. The movie Avengers Infinity War balances between 30-40 different characters, and three extremely important story lines simultaneously, and it's extremely good. Albeit all of these characters are introduced in the 18 movies that preceded it and only the main antagonist is the new character here.

The shounen anime I've seen that aren't more than a hundred episodes have been good for the most part. The pacing get a bit too fast for sure, like in the case of Food Wars season 3, but the first two seasons are extremely good, as are Haikyuu and My Hero Academia. Studios have gotten better at adapting shounen manga seasonally.

Is it though? In Cardcaptor Sakura, Sakura Kinomoto is a normal girl who gets powers, and her life is constantly on the line and she has to defend herself. Madoka has deaths for sure, but that's subversive, it doesn't destroy the genre. It's merely modifying the elements of the genre. And those deaths are trivial if you take into account the fact that there's a being who jumps across multiple timelines. Madoka still has a mascot character, a magical girl transformation, a weapon to fight and she saves the day at the end. It's just that it pushes the boundary of the magical girl genre and is more darker. Madoka isn't commenting on the nature of the genre or taking it apart in any way. I'd even say that it relies on shock value, like Attack on Titan, meaning it wants to like dark compared to other shows. And of course, its focus on certain themes, selfishness/selflessness, Kyube's practicality and not being concerned about free will, etc.

One Punch Man is more of a parody in my opinon, of one trope of the genre, the fights being extended to an endless amount of time, and an adult like Saitama ending it in one punch. And Saitama at the end is no different from Naruto or Deku, he's still good, he's a hero and he wants to save people by risking his life.

That is very good argument =) And the fact of the matter is, the difference between expanding the genre's boundaries and decomposing it depends on your definitions and on what you perceive as important part of the genre. I think the game here is to find definitions that give you a better insight to how the story function, rather than trying to defend definitions that are, well, just nice and good, but not necessarily useful.

For example, all this details that you mentions, the girls fighting evil in dangerous fights, using transformations, having a mascot, all that is part of the mahou shoujo genre, and Madoka used these details to establish itself as a magical girl show. But these two aspects, turning from a normal person to a "magical girl" and fighting dangerous fights, these were pushed beyond the genre's limits. I heard what you said, that they weren't, so let me explain why I think they were.
The essence of the mahou shoujo, I think, is empowerment of the girls. Not just in the literal sense, the whole story tries to focus on them solving both their personal problems and the external ones, saving the world and the like. We watch a mahou shoujo show to see the protagonist develop and change. By the very nature of the genre you have your main characters in a situation where they need to learn to deal with all sorts of new challenges, learn to accept a new part of their life, etc. All these things are uncomfortable and can easily be emotionally negative, and so when things eventually go well it feels even better. It is a simple story structure, you start low and you go high.

So what Madoka did was changing this pattern. Instead of empowering its characters, the contract took away their humanity. The fighting they had to do was not a part of their personal growth, but a survival game. And not just that, the characters are essentially trapped and sentenced the moment they sign the contract. Magical girls don't survive long in this universe, and none of them have a future. Instead of starting low and going up this story started low and went into a free fall to n abyss. 

Deaths are important part of achieving what the show wanted to do, but it is just one of the many things it did. One of the most powerful details of Madoka is that the whole plot revolved around the protagonist deciding whether of not to become a magical girl. So for her the whole journey of growing, accepting the new life and learning to deal with new and old problems, all that didn't even come to exist. This whole life was like a life of a convict waiting for an execution. Instead, the show focused on her trying to avoid this fate. This would be a joke if it wasn't that serious. 
 
So that is why I think it is a decomposition. It does not follow the genre in its most important features, rather, it goes fully against it, while following some of the genre's own tropes and conventions. Did not provide more room for the "mahou shoujo anime", cause what Madoka did is incompatible with it. However, Madoka's popularity creates a ton of follower shows, some of which probably bridged the gap and so modern magical girl anime probably span the space of both the old pieces and the territory Madoka explored. In this sense you can claim that Madoka expanded the genre's borders. 

I guess for me the big difference between shows like Gurren Lagann, Evangelion, etc., that expand the boundaries of their genres and Madoka which decomposed its genre, is that first ones try to find new themes and idea consistent with the old conventions, and the second tries to find a way in which the old convention breaks itself. So while the first ones could be enjoyed fully on its own, the second require you to know about the old conventions, otherwise you wouldn't get what the show is doing. 

By the way, I haven't seen nearly enough of these anime to have an informed opinion, I am mostly speaking from what I heard others say about different magical girl shows.

Yeah, doing a Madoka-like take on the hero genre would be a really difficult task. Would have loved to see it done though.
 
That is very good argument =) And the fact of the matter is, the difference between expanding the genre's boundaries and decomposing it depends on your definitions and on what you perceive as important part of the genre. I think the game here is to find definitions that give you a better insight to how the story function, rather than trying to defend definitions that are, well, just nice and good, but not necessarily useful.

For example, all this details that you mentions, the girls fighting evil in dangerous fights, using transformations, having a mascot, all that is part of the mahou shoujo genre, and Madoka used these details to establish itself as a magical girl show. But these two aspects, turning from a normal person to a "magical girl" and fighting dangerous fights, these were pushed beyond the genre's limits. I heard what you said, that they weren't, so let me explain why I think they were.
The essence of the mahou shoujo, I think, is empowerment of the girls. Not just in the literal sense, the whole story tries to focus on them solving both their personal problems and the external ones, saving the world and the like. We watch a mahou shoujo show to see the protagonist develop and change. By the very nature of the genre you have your main characters in a situation where they need to learn to deal with all sorts of new challenges, learn to accept a new part of their life, etc. All these things are uncomfortable and can easily be emotionally negative, and so when things eventually go well it feels even better. It is a simple story structure, you start low and you go high.

So what Madoka did was changing this pattern. Instead of empowering its characters, the contract took away their humanity. The fighting they had to do was not a part of their personal growth, but a survival game. And not just that, the characters are essentially trapped and sentenced the moment they sign the contract. Magical girls don't survive long in this universe, and none of them have a future. Instead of starting low and going up this story started low and went into a free fall to n abyss. 

Deaths are important part of achieving what the show wanted to do, but it is just one of the many things it did. One of the most powerful details of Madoka is that the whole plot revolved around the protagonist deciding whether of not to become a magical girl. So for her the whole journey of growing, accepting the new life and learning to deal with new and old problems, all that didn't even come to exist. This whole life was like a life of a convict waiting for an execution. Instead, the show focused on her trying to avoid this fate. This would be a joke if it wasn't that serious. 
 
So that is why I think it is a decomposition. It does not follow the genre in its most important features, rather, it goes fully against it, while following some of the genre's own tropes and conventions. Did not provide more room for the "mahou shoujo anime", cause what Madoka did is incompatible with it. However, Madoka's popularity creates a ton of follower shows, some of which probably bridged the gap and so modern magical girl anime probably span the space of both the old pieces and the territory Madoka explored. In this sense you can claim that Madoka expanded the genre's borders. 

I guess for me the big difference between shows like Gurren Lagann, Evangelion, etc., that expand the boundaries of their genres and Madoka which decomposed its genre, is that first ones try to find new themes and idea consistent with the old conventions, and the second tries to find a way in which the old convention breaks itself. So while the first ones could be enjoyed fully on its own, the second require you to know about the old conventions, otherwise you wouldn't get what the show is doing. 

By the way, I haven't seen nearly enough of these anime to have an informed opinion, I am mostly speaking from what I heard others say about different magical girl shows.

Yeah, doing a Madoka-like take on the hero genre would be a really difficult task. Would have loved to see it done though.


I want you to clarify something regarding your first two paragraphs? Did you think I didn't say Madoka pushed the genre's limits or did you think I said it. This sentence confuses me "But these two aspects, turning from a normal person to a "magical girl" and fighting dangerous fights, these were pushed beyond the genre's limits. I heard what you said, that they weren't, so let me explain why I think they were."
I for sure do think that Madoka pushed the genre's limits.

But decomposition is more of a end-goal, and it usually has to do with failure. Like in Watchmen, which deconstructs the super-hero genre, the whole thing falls apart because Dr. Manhatten, "the hero" ends up destroying the world itself. I recommend Watchmen to you if you want to see it done on the Hero genre. 

Characters being trapped in a survival game isn't exactly deconstructing the genre, is it? It's merely a tweak. Plus Madoka doesn't become a magical girl for a long time in the anime. The same way Eva spends most of the series examining the psyche of each character by using robots as a vehicle, as a back-drop. The characters still achieve what they strive to do in the end: which is saving the whole, and that doesn't defy genre conventions.  And characters being given a death sentence itself is not that uncommon: Madoka takes a lot of inspiration from Bokurano in that aspect. My point is that these things are merely subversive at best, they don't twist the genre itself. Or comment on the nature of the genre. Even the creators themselve set out to create a magical girls show with a dark twist, not deconstruct the genre itself.
The anime merely changes its shade, not comment on the set of trappings and conventions that would happen when the genre
is played out in the real world. It points out that the genre is conventional and stunted and strives to push it, but rather focuses on its core narrative themes, like utilitarianism, selfishnenss, and not twist and turn the nature of the genre itself.

Take School Days for example. It's bad but ignore that. School Days deconstructs its genre because it talks and comments about what would happen when a guy actually gets his harem, when he has sex/makes love to multiple girls at the same time in the same world, and it explores what would actually happen to the guy at the end.

And I'm not ragging on Madoka here by saying it's not doing what you say: pushing the genre's limits is also a great thing to do, and Madoka created a new wave of anime, just like Eva did. School Days deconstructed its genre but it's in no way good.
 
I want you to clarify something regarding your first two paragraphs? Did you think I didn't say Madoka pushed the genre's limits or did you think I said it. This sentence confuses me "But these two aspects, turning from a normal person to a "magical girl" and fighting dangerous fights, these were pushed beyond the genre's limits. I heard what you said, that they weren't, so let me explain why I think they were."
I for sure do think that Madoka pushed the genre's limits.

But decomposition is more of a end-goal, and it usually has to do with failure. Like in Watchmen, which deconstructs the super-hero genre, the whole thing falls apart because Dr. Manhatten, "the hero" ends up destroying the world itself. I recommend Watchmen to you if you want to see it done on the Hero genre. 

Characters being trapped in a survival game isn't exactly deconstructing the genre, is it? It's merely a tweak. Plus Madoka doesn't become a magical girl for a long time in the anime. The same way Eva spends most of the series examining the psyche of each character by using robots as a vehicle, as a back-drop. The characters still achieve what they strive to do in the end: which is saving the whole, and that doesn't defy genre conventions.  And characters being given a death sentence itself is not that uncommon: Madoka takes a lot of inspiration from Bokurano in that aspect. My point is that these things are merely subversive at best, they don't twist the genre itself. Or comment on the nature of the genre. Even the creators themselve set out to create a magical girls show with a dark twist, not deconstruct the genre itself.
The anime merely changes its shade, not comment on the set of trappings and conventions that would happen when the genre
is played out in the real world. It points out that the genre is conventional and stunted and strives to push it, but rather focuses on its core narrative themes, like utilitarianism, selfishnenss, and not twist and turn the nature of the genre itself.

Take School Days for example. It's bad but ignore that. School Days deconstructs its genre because it talks and comments about what would happen when a guy actually gets his harem, when he has sex/makes love to multiple girls at the same time in the same world, and it explores what would actually happen to the guy at the end.

And I'm not ragging on Madoka here by saying it's not doing what you say: pushing the genre's limits is also a great thing to do, and Madoka created a new wave of anime, just like Eva did. School Days deconstructed its genre but it's in no way good.

No, I got what you were saying, no worries : D You say that Madoka was working on expanding the boundaries of the genre, I was saying it disrespected these boundaries to be able to look at the genre from the outside.

It is all a matter of perspective, there is not way to argue that my or your view is right. For me the core of the mahou shoujo genre is the empowerment and the dynamics that the characters experience after obtaining the powers of magical girls. And the old mahou shoujo genre is essentially positive, in one way or another. I might be wrong, just my impression. Deaths, fights, transformations, plot tropes etc., all of that are tools, they don't matter to me, although they are important at establishing a show as a mahou shoujo anime and such. So for me Madoka is an example of decomposition, as it works withing the formal "outwards" framework of its genre, but allows itself to break its central values/features. 

Evangelion on the other hand is not a decomposition, just a show with a lot of fresh ideas. The End of Evangelion move maybe, but I haven't seen it to say anything. Same with School Days, can't comment without having seen it. I don't think just making the protagonist giving up, just killing the protagonist, just subverting a single trope is what decomposition is about.

As I said, I think terms need to be useful, as they are just tools. My vague definition of genre decomposition helps me connect different shows/books with postmodern aesthetics, it helps be see how this "working with the genre" rather than "withing the genre" can be done. As soon as I find a more enlightening idea or definition I'll drop my old one =) But at the end of the day we are all seeing the same anime, and it  doesn't matter if I see Madoka as breaking the old genre and then a new generation of shows expand mahou shoujo to naturally include dark Madoka-like elements, while you see it as Madoka expanding these boundaries. Both are okay view points.
 
Anime is literally the place where you'll find the most number of powerful/strong/badass female characters. Maybe if you watched the right shows you'd start seeing them everywhere.
 
what do you have in mind?
i don't see many characters with strong abilities staying strong to the very end.
they get nerfed
 
Blackangel said:
what do you have in mind?
i don't see many characters with strong abilities staying strong to the very end.
they get nerfed

So you're looking for just fighting strength or a strong will and personality?
 
A couple shows that come to mind: Made in Abyss, The Ancient Magus' Bride, Avatar: The Last Airbender (Katara seriously only gets stronger), and... that's all I can think of for now for physically strong and strong-willed female protagonists that help the 'main character'. If you can ditch the helping part, go watch Happy Sugar Life for a badass female protag.
 
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